A US National Health Service

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A US National Health Service
Topic Started: Aug 12 2009, 08:39 PM (208 Views)
Paper	Aug 12 2009, 08:39 PM Post #1
Member Posts: 2,067 Group: Members Member #19,225 Joined: May 17, 2004 I'm Browsing With Firefox 3	Obviously a big debate about it. Lots of Americans saying how rubbish the UK NHS system is. Lol, just not true! What are people's concerns?



Nivexonix	Aug 15 2009, 09:07 AM Post #2
L o v e Posts: 564 Group: Members Member #90,678 Joined: January 15, 2006 I'm Browsing With Firefox 3	With a national health care plan for the US? I think there is a lot that contributes to their fear. First, and foremost, most Americans don't actually go out of their way to do their own research on the bills and such. Even the recent idea of trying to kill off the elderly...most people would probably believe whatever news station they watch rather than go out and read the bill. I know that I haven't actually read it yet, though I can vote it isn't as much of importance to me. Another thing is that people fully anticipate a rise in taxes. To be honest, there are a lot of greedy people in America. I realize that there are those people who are struggling, but some people are taking things way to far. I think socialism would benefit more of the Americans than would taking away from everybody. A lot of people have just linked Obama's socialist-ideas to Hitler, which isn't fully right. Hitler didn't go about it with pure beliefs. The idea of socialism are good, but the practice thus far in history has proven to be bad for the ideas.



SteveTZ	Aug 15 2009, 09:50 AM Post #3
Member Posts: 84 Group: Members Member #33,457 Joined: October 25, 2004 I'm Browsing With Firefox 2 My Board URL http://s2.zetaboards.com/ifskinzone/index/	The National Health Service here in the UK has plenty of room for improvement, but at the end of the day it's free. People always have the option to have private care if that's what they'd prefer.



Logik	Aug 15 2009, 11:02 AM Post #4
jibun wooooooooooo Posts: 7,909 Group: Members Member #28,312 Joined: August 25, 2004	Basically the entire idea is great except a group of conservatives/FOX News goes off and tells people about "death panels" and "murdering your grandma", which thanks to the fact their entire viewership is extremely gullible, they believe it and go off to Town Hall meetings (where they can talk to their congressman) and yell loudly. The polls indicate that the overwhelming majority of americans want healthcare reform. However when you go off and look at the shows perpetrating the misconceptions they say stupidly "faux-over patriotic" things and straight out lies. Glenn Beck, for example, routinely cries and says "because I love my country SOOOO MUCH" and then tell people how Obama is a racist socialist Nazi. Then he tells his viewers that "we surround them" and "we need to take back our country", basically advocating revolution. But hell, I didn't read the bill either. It's 1000 pages o.O



Aaron	Aug 15 2009, 11:26 AM Post #5
Green Rocks Blue Socks! Posts: 4,157 Group: Community Moderator Member #31,457 Joined: October 2, 2004 I'm Browsing With Firefox 3	The thing is that Insurance as we see it today is not a natural product of the market, instead it was a government forced creation, that put us in this mess today. Before the government forced employers to give their employees HMOs insurance at the time was used for major operations, every thing else was out of pocket, drug companies and doctors charged the smallest amount they could now that some one else is paying for it they will charge as high as they can for appointments and drugs. Lease we forget that people will use this as a power grab also, want to eat out? want to drink a beer or pop? Since it is now going to be funded by tax dollars people will only seek ways to control what you eat and do more, need poof? Look at the dirty looks and the attitude people get when they use food stamps to pay for food, when its stuff that is cheap but isn't as healthy as other stuff (which costs more). The post office is loosing a ton of money if it was in the privet sector fully it would of been out of the game long ago, FEMA after Katrina was/is a huge mess. Because of Government regulations on banks which encourage high risk loans to people who could not afford it (it spans back to the Carter administration) we had the credit crunch. Is there any reason why I or any one else should trust the government to be able to confidently run another program, after so many failures?



Logik	Aug 15 2009, 11:43 AM Post #6
jibun wooooooooooo Posts: 7,909 Group: Members Member #28,312 Joined: August 25, 2004	Aaron Aug 15 2009, 11:26 AM The thing is that Insurance as we see it today is not a natural product of the market, instead it was a government forced creation, that put us in this mess today. Before the government forced employers to give their employees HMOs insurance at the time was used for major operations, every thing else was out of pocket, drug companies and doctors charged the smallest amount they could now that some one else is paying for it they will charge as high as they can for appointments and drugs. Lease we forget that people will use this as a power grab also, want to eat out? want to drink a beer or pop? Since it is now going to be funded by tax dollars people will only seek ways to control what you eat and do more, need poof? Look at the dirty looks and the attitude people get when they use food stamps to pay for food, when its stuff that is cheap but isn't as healthy as other stuff (which costs more). The post office is loosing a ton of money if it was in the privet sector fully it would of been out of the game long ago, FEMA after Katrina was/is a huge mess. Because of Government regulations on banks which encourage high risk loans to people who could not afford it (it spans back to the Carter administration) we had the credit crunch. Is there any reason why I or any one else should trust the government to be able to confidently run another program, after so many failures? HMOs were created as a way to provide the least amount of service for the maximum amount of money. If you need proof that such a system can work, here is some historical context; before WWI, a universal healthcare system in America was nearly a sure thing, both candidates running for president at the time were campaigning with it. Everybody thought it was a fine idea, but basically fear killed it. During WWI, in an effort to distance themselves from the "evil and barbaric" Germans, who had their own Universal Healthcare system, America basically tossed it away. Now to the present, a fine example would be the aforementioned British healthcare system. It works, it's free, and it spends money to save lives. If Stephen Hawking was born in the US, the HMOs would have drained all the money out of him and ended his treatment. In England, he accredits the system for spending the money to save him. You can't possibly put a price tag on somebody's life, you save them because they are a human being, not because they can pay. As for the Government Run Healthcare Provider Alternative, it is basically there to keep the other companies honest. You are cherrypicking programs that have failed, while ignoring plenty of others over the years which have been hugely successful, or at least workable, such as the second reincarnation of Cash for Clunkers. You don't want it, fine, stay with Humana or Blue Cross or something.



Nicola	Aug 15 2009, 12:03 PM Post #7
..... Posts: 15,419 Group: Global Support Team Member #28,661 Joined: August 29, 2004 I'm Browsing With Firefox 3	It's easy for some Americans to say how awful our health care system is, unless they're on the brunt of it. I see so many patients with cancer for the third time, that I think it's absolutely disgusting to make those poor people pay for treatment. Our government pays a decent way to train new doctors, nurses, and another types of staff, and pays them a set wage (there are bands, and points within bands), gives them a great pension, to freely treat sick people. Like Steve said, if they want to go private and get some things done faster, they can. I think it's vile that really sick people in America have to cope with their illness, and even die because of it. Meanwhile doctors in the US rake in hundreds of thousands (way more than the UK doctors get), get rich, while the sick get poorer. I can't see any good thing about that system at all. I like knowing that if I got sick, it won't cripple me or my family financially. Plus with cancer, because it's just so evil, sufferers are likely to get it again. And again....and again. I'd personally take the ways our healthcare system sucks, over the US health system any day. I'm glad America finally has a president with an actual heart, rather than a stone one that is just hungry for cash.



Lindsey	Aug 15 2009, 02:09 PM Post #8
<3 Posts: 2,516 Group: Community Moderator Member #91,611 Joined: January 21, 2006 I'm Browsing With Firefox 3	Logik Aug 15 2009, 11:02 AM The polls indicate that the overwhelming majority of americans want healthcare reform. I don't believe any poll. I've seen polls that say majority of Americans do not want Obama's healthcare reform too. Democrats, Republicans - they all do their own bias polls, which due to the lack of agreement, I doubt are even closely representative of actual America. No reasonable person can decide when waters are this murky. Yes, healthcare needs to reformed though; Medicare, as it is, needs some serious help. I've also had my own experiences being a military dependent where government run healthcare has been a sore in my side. It's not unusual to wait a month for an appointment on base, which you learn to put up with (the length of time you wait is directly proportional to how large the base is). However, two days ago I got a call from the clinic explaining to me I had to wait another month for my appointment because the doctor randomly decided to up and quit. I don't know the doctor's reason and it's most likely unrelated to socialized medicine; the point is, it's just sucks I have to wait longer now. With that said, it makes me wonder how this is going to be made reliable for millions of people when it's already a pain with a few thousand.



Pete B	Aug 15 2009, 02:13 PM Post #9
Posts: 6,064 Group: Global Support Team Member #77,320 Joined: October 29, 2005 I'm Browsing With Internet Explorer 5	The UK spends less of a percentage value of its GDP on health care than the US. The UK has a national health service and the US doesn't...there's something wrong there.



Das	Aug 15 2009, 04:07 PM Post #10
Smells of rich mahogany Posts: 7,054 Group: Members Member #34,712 Joined: November 10, 2004 I'm Browsing With Firefox 3	Nicola Aug 15 2009, 12:03 PM Meanwhile doctors in the US rake in hundreds of thousands (way more than the UK doctors get), get rich, while the sick get poorer. Doctors should make more than any other profession. The disgusting thing is how the richest people on the planet do the least for their money, and the least to help society. Anyway, I think people forget that these bills wont kill private health insurance, and I hope the money comes out of drug companies, and not E.R.s and family doctors who don't make much to begin with.



Paper	Aug 17 2009, 09:51 AM Post #11
Member Posts: 2,067 Group: Members Member #19,225 Joined: May 17, 2004 I'm Browsing With Firefox 3	Quote: The idea of socialism are good, but the practice thus far in history has proven to be bad for the ideas. But surely the UK and Europe are both evidence that it can and does succeed. I would say the NHS has been a great success. It's fanatastic being able to get free medical advice and help without worry about the cost. I know that the majority, myself included, could not afford care at this level if the system were not in place. Quote: Now to the present, a fine example would be the aforementioned British healthcare system. It works, it's free, and it spends money to save lives. If Stephen Hawking was born in the US, the HMOs would have drained all the money out of him and ended his treatment. In England, he accredits the system for spending the money to save him. You can't possibly put a price tag on somebody's life, you save them because they are a human being, not because they can pay. I second this. Lindsey is living proof! In the UK here, I rang to see my doctor but he is on holiday. They just set me up with another doctor at the health service that same day. If you can't call that a success then what can we call a success? And I am sure America won't regret a NHS. It makes me think, if it succeeds with health, in what other areas can we make it succeed. Education is one the UK badly need to work on. Really these systems will only fully work when we slowly force change over time, eventually with the effect of dissolving the bourgeoisie until it no longer exists. I would be all up for just ridding the bourgeoisie but history has shown that doing this too quickly results in poor systems with corrupt governments.



Aaron	Aug 17 2009, 11:03 AM Post #12
Green Rocks Blue Socks! Posts: 4,157 Group: Community Moderator Member #31,457 Joined: October 2, 2004 I'm Browsing With Firefox 3	http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.smith14aug14,0,5551246.column I found this an interesting read, sure it may not be an in dept look at the bill or anything but interesting none the less, perhaps a teaser that would want you to look more in to Frederic Bastiat arguments.



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